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1450 DMC ? part number help please.

L

lorenzo

New member
I have a 6 cylinder Ford motor in this machine and would like to get a new set of points and condenser for it.
When I go to NAPA or AUTO ZONE ECT. they look at me like Dear in the headlights and say "We need a part number"

I really don't know for sure what to ask for.

I realize it's an industrial engine, a Ford but they say there are several different ones.

Any one have a part number for a set of points??
 
POINTS ???? What millennium u in bro ?:whistling:
If it was mine I'd slam an electronic ignition in it and be done.
 
I have a Pertronix in my 1402 with a Wisconsin engine. I wouldn't bother trying to fix the old points distributor.
Their Tech phone number is (909) 547-9058.
 
Sure, you could go electronic ignition but where is the sense of adventure? Personally I like knowing I am doing it the way they would have been in the 70's and facing the same trials and perils. Besides, I like keeping my machines all original. Would you put electric ignition in an all original 500GT?

While I can't help you with the part numbers all I can suggest is to see what vehicles they put that ford block into and take it from there
 
Sure, you could go electronic ignition but where is the sense of adventure? Personally I like knowing I am doing it the way they would have been in the 70's and facing the same trials and perils. Besides, I like keeping my machines all original. Would you put electric ignition in an all original 500GT?

While I can't help you with the part numbers all I can suggest is to see what vehicles they put that ford block into and take it from there.
 
rodre said:
Sure, you could go electronic ignition but where is the sense of adventure? Personally I like knowing I am doing it the way they would have been in the 70's and facing the same trials and perils. Besides, I like keeping my machines all original. Would you put electric ignition in an all original 500GT?
Click to expand...

YES. Although I am all about functionality vs original doorstop/paperweight genuinity
 
While agree the electronic conversion is SOOOOOO nice. If you are still looking for a points set up: NAPA CS753 for Points; FA-82 Condensoer; FA-69 Cap; FA158 Rotor.
 
Looks like I get to eat words here, anyone have the part number for the Pertronix electronic ignition for the 1404 v4 engine or the distributor type?

It is either cold or raining where I am and I don't want to keep using the carb ether spray to start the Imp up.
 
For the v4 104ci in the 1975 1404 Imp it looks like the distributor is a Bosch 0-231-170-028. The earlier year engines that has the different ventilation (vacuum?) for the engine probably have a different distributor as it states somewhere else in these forums and alluded to in the Saab v4 service manual here:

http://www.vintagesaabmanuals.org/u...96_montecarlo_1967_1968_1969_1970-_150dpi.pdf

The Imp Manual states the ignition coil is a C0NF-12029-A (or maybe CONF-12029-A) but mine appears to be a D0PF-12029-B (or maybe a DOPF-12029-B) and appears to be original to the cat judging from the patina.

In any case it looks like the correct Pertronix electronic ignition parts can be found here:

Distributor ID 0-231-170-028 (Search Again)

Make Bosch Distributor # 0-231-170-028
Additional #s 72TF12100AKA
Cylinders 4
Ignitor 6V Negative Ground 1847VN6
Ignitor 12V Negative Ground 1847V
Ignitor 24V Negative Ground
Ignitor 6V Positive Ground
Ignitor 12V Positive Ground
Ignitor 2 91847V
Ignitor 3
Coil Application Chart

chart.png


I am thinking to go with the Ignitor II version and corresponding coil. I believe they state something about not using solid core spark plug wires with this but I am waiting to hear back from their tech support in regards to what all I need. Will post back what they say.

One question I am left with is if there are anything I should be concerned about from increasing the voltage to plugs from ~20,000 to 45,000 volts?
 
Spark voltage is a function of the combination of the spark plug gap and distributor rotor gap. The coil rating is what the coil secondary is capable of generating. Too big a plug gap will raise the voltage to a higher level and break down the plug wires and coil components more rapidly. High compression engines also need a higher voltage due to the denser air in the cylinder at ignition. I don't think we have that problem.
The old GM high energy ignition system on the Olds 455 (coil in the distributor cap) was capable of 65,000 volts and used a .060 plug gap. The problem was the big spark gap and high compression caused a lot of coil failures. Most people run .040 on the plugs these days.
The Pertronix distributor and mating coil should be fine on a Ford industrial engine.
 
Yes, I read that there were stock coils failing with the Pertronix electronic ignition so I was going to get the matching Pertronix coil while I was at it. I am also replacing the plug wires with NGK RC-EUX015. These wires are the correct ones with the 90 degree spark plug boot on the #1 plug that is tight by the alternator. The Denso ones are all straight on the spark plug side and that causes the #1 plug wire to rub on the alternator mounting - probably not where you want arcing or direct contact once the silicone insulation rubs off with all the vibration. If Pertronix makes cables that would work for this application it is not readily obvious as I could not find the cable length for each of their kits - too bad, I would have liked some nice red ones.

I am glad you brought up the spark plug gap. The Thiokol Imp manual does not mention anything for plug make/model or gap. The only thing I could find on the subject is in the Saab v4 manual, which is for the 1.7 liter version, and calls for a 0.024 - 0.028 in. gap. It mentions the NGK BP-6E spark plug which I can get to cross reference to a NGK BPR6EIX (Iridium tip version) with a factory set 0.032 gap. Do you think I should re-gap this to the 0.024-0.028 range, leave it at 0.032, or re-gap to 0.040?
 
I would go with the book values but .032 wouldn't hurt anything. The .040 I mentioned was for the Olds 455 with high energy ignition. I have a Pertronix system (distributor and coil) on my VH4D Wisconsin in the 1402. The book plug gap on it is .030.

You have to be careful with coils. Some have a built in resistor, some don't and require an external one. The Pertronix coil is made with a built in resistor for use with their distributor. If you run a coil with no resistor, there is no resistance to reduce the coil current when the points are closed and the engine isn't running. Pure DC will burn out a coil if it isn't pulsing or doesn't have a resistor.
 
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I put one in my bombi and used my stock coil. Big mistake on my part. Coil failed and i was a few miles in.
New coil and drove out.
 
turbinator62 said:
I would go with the book values but .032 wouldn't hurt anything. The .040 I mentioned was for the Olds 455 with high energy ignition. I have a Pertronix system (distributor and coil) on my VH4D Wisconsin in the 1402. The book plug gap on it is .030.

You have to be careful with coils. Some have a built in resistor, some don't and require an external one. The Pertronix coil is made with a built in resistor for use with their distributor. If you run a coil with no resistor, there is no resistance to reduce the coil current when the points are closed and the engine isn't running. Pure DC will burn out a coil if it isn't pulsing or doesn't have a resistor.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. How can I tell if the current one has an external resistor, any hints? If the Pertronix one comes with a built in resistor and the current one utilizes an external resistor would I need to remove the external resistor?
 
Usually on older vehicles the resistor is a ceramic block about 3'' long but not always. Trace your coil wire back from the coil to the ignition switch. If it is there it will be in series with the coil wire. Many standard coils had resistors built in also. Check the resistance across the 2 terminals on the coil and compare it to the Pertronix chart above. The stock Wisconsin coil has a built in resistor, but it is at the cabin so I can't measure it.

You will always measure some resistance on a coil primary just from the resistance of the wire in the primary winding.

I would buy the Pertronix coil and keep your old one for an emergency carry on spare. That's what I do. The coil they sell is designed to work with the electronic sensor in the distributor which has much faster switching than points have. My cat has an incredibly hot spark with that combination compared to the old coil and points or magneto system.

Notice that the coils for 8 cylinder engines have a lower resistance than those for 4 cylinder engines. At operating RPM, the frequency of the pulses on the coil are higher (more cylinders firing per revolution ). When an inductor (coil) has an AC or pulsing DC signal on it, its internal resistance (impedance) increases due to the expanding and collapsing magnetic field. (reluctance). As the frequency increases, the impedance increases which increases the effective internal resistance. So an 8 cylinder engine uses a lower resistance coil than a 4 cylinder in order to have a hot enough spark.

To complicate matters further, when cars switched to 12 volt systems, they still used 6 volt coils. There was a resistor in series with them to keep them from burning out while running. But during start, there was an extra contact on the starter solenoid that would provide full battery voltage to the coil (bypassing the resistor) for easier starting and because the battery voltage would drop while cranking. (this doesn't hurt the coil because the ignition signal is pulsing during startup) Automotive ignition systems have come a long way since then.

Hope this all makes sense. This is why I love working on jet engines. Spin em, squirt in some fuel and light it. Something is going to happen for sure. No distributor, no timing, no points or rotor.
 
turbinator62 said:
This is why I love working on jet engines. Spin em, squirt in some fuel and light it. Something is going to happen for sure. No distributor, no timing, no points or rotor.
Click to expand...

Yes, but when the piston has issues it's a 'clank-thud' and everything stops. I was using a turbine powered genset onetime when a compressor blade decided that it didn't like the others and left. We never did find all of it. but it certainly made a nice hole in the side of the unit. thus the red stripe that said" Don't stand here". I've never seen a piston engine with a red stripe on it.
 
I will have to check resistance across the coil terminals. I used this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWxJmbm5V3s

and I got a 9.42 vDC reading. I am getting confused. I looked in the service manual for the v4 industrial and it describes the coil part C0NF-12029-A as" Coil Assembly, Ignition -12 volt negative ground with internal primary resistor". To confuse me even more my coil is not even this Ford part number.

but then I read on:

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2006/06/Ignition-Coils/1280615.html

that Ford used externally resisted coils (yellow tops???) until 1975 when they switched to electronic ignition and a "blue top" coil.

While I am finding the education in functionality and the history lesson interesting I really need to know what is going to happen if you have both an external and internal resistor? I am guessing that unless the internal resistor is self regulating somehow that you won't be getting the correct amount of voltage to the coil and it either won't start or you won't be getting the highest voltage possible on the output side of the coil. If this is the case what would I have to do, jump around the resistor between the ignition switch and the new coil?

:shitHitFan:
 
And for those of us that don't know a volt from an ohm. Don't need no stinkin coil or battery, if'in we park on a hill.
 

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rodre said:
and I got a 9.42 vDC reading.

I looked in the service manual for the v4 industrial and it describes the coil part C0NF-12029-A as" Coil Assembly, Ignition -12 volt negative ground with internal primary resistor".

To confuse me even more my coil is not even this Ford part number.
Click to expand...

Few more checks need to be done: Disconnect + wire going to coil. Read the voltage just on that wire. Should be battery voltage with or without resistor. If not, you have something else going on.

if battery voltage:

Connect coil back up. Disconnect coil going to points/ control box. Read voltage on + terminal. Should still be battery voltage. If not suspect coil has internal failure.

if still battery voltage

Disconnect + from coil. Hook to a 12 volt headlight, other end of light to ground. Read voltage at light. if 6-8 volts then you have a in line resistor. If battery voltage then you don't. If it is still 9+ then you probably don't have a in line resistor, but do have a resistance issue. If either way low voltage (both resistor and a problem) or high (but not battery):

Common causes of (unintentional )lowered voltage under load:

Bad wire: multistrand that only has a strand or two left intact.
Bad Connection: Corroded splice, loose terminal, poor solder joint
Ignition switch has bad contacts,
ACME product

If you can find the other end of the + coil wire and measure resistance it should be 0 if no resistor, 1.2-1.6 ohms with a resistor.

Unlikely, but worth noting: If someone else has modified the system, you possibly have resistance wire rather than a separate resistor.
 
sno-drifter said:
And for those of us that don't know a volt from an ohm. Don't need no stinkin coil or battery, if'in we park on a hill.
Click to expand...

Yep, and when you are sitting there around a fire, swapping greasing stories, and someone else's cat breaks an axle, and rolls back down the hill and nudges yours (that you left in gear) and yours decides to go somewhere all on it's own....

Saw a M-35 started that way once, got backed into and it took off... CO was not a happy camper.
 
Cidertom's trouble shooting method should get it figured out for you. I would add, that when ever you have two resistive loads in series, the voltage measured across each load will be the same percentage of total voltage as the percentage of that resistor is to the total resistance. In other words, if you have a 1 ohm and a 3 ohm resistor in series with 12 volts across them, 1/4 of the voltage will be measured across the 1 ohm and 3/4 of the total voltage will be measured across the 3 ohm resistor. That will be true regardless of the total resistance, total voltage, or number of resistors.

So if you have an external resistor, and a coil with an internal resistor, the coil primary voltage will be too low, resulting in a weak spark.

The bottom line here is your cat is about 50 years old. Who knows what has been done to it in that period? My philosophy in working on airplanes (as well as my cat) is that if I didn't personally Replace/repair/modify/inspect something, or know and trust the person who did, or have verifiable documentation that the job was done correctly, I really have no idea what the condition of the equipment in question is. That is important in aviation as well as snowcats (they are a lot slower so they can just "barely" kill you.)

I was pretty confident that when I bought my cat from Nikson the work he had done was top notch because of the documentation he had posted on this forum and elsewhere.

My advice at this point would be to get the Pertronix distributor with its matching coil, and wire your coil + terminal directly to the ignition switch.
Then you will know for sure what you have and confidence that it is correct.
 
Thanks for all the info above. Its raining here like crazy and I am hoping it will stop so I can get out and dig into this. I tried to cross reference my coil part number D0PF-12029-B to see if it was internally resisited and ended up with mixed results, but I am leaning towards it being externally resisted as it turns out they used this coil in 66-75 Ford broncos. From searching the classic bronco forums it appears they did have a resistance wire which stepped the voltage down to 9 volts. My cat in s pretty original but I know the last owner did mess with the wiring because he added in some small blowers at the top of the windshield I am guessing to help defrost/defog the windshield. While the mounting looks ok the wiring looks pretty hack and I think it is screwing up something behind the dash. I am also not able to get the spotlight to work but I am not sure where the on/off switch for it is or if it has a bulb. Oddley the manual doesn't mention a thing about the spotlight in the electrical schematic or otherwise. I am just trying to figure out at this point if this is the cause of my non/hard starting. When I pulled the distributor cap the points, rotor, and cap all looked new, so now I am thinking the wiring is messed up somehow. I agree that I will probably just run a wire directly from ignition to coil in the end but I just want to make sure the existing wiring is sane so I don't end up with new or different problems when I install the Pertronix gear.

Yeah, I used to have a Datsun 710 that I would have to park on a hill facing downhill or a couple buddies with me to help push start it. Despite it's starting problems I wish I had that car now.
 
Cidertom said:
Yep, and when you are sitting there around a fire, swapping greasing stories, and someone else's cat breaks an axle, and rolls back down the hill and nudges yours (that you left in gear) and yours decides to go somewhere all on it's own....

Saw a M-35 started that way once, got backed into and it took off... CO was not a happy camper.
Click to expand...

That is why we leave the fuel shut off pulled out when parked. Or if electric, no fuel until powered. But then if'in there is no battery, you aren't going anywhere anyhow. Guess the battery is a necessary evil.
 
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