2 band vrs 3 band ST4 tracks

300 H and H · Mar 24, 2010

Question, Are the big wheel 3 band ST4's more or less likely to slip a track than the earlier two band 6 boggie setup? I have learned the big wheel 3 band model was devolped to help prevent this. But I have also heard that while it does so in most conditions, there is a type of condition that favors the 2 band set up....

I guesss I am a little confused about this. It seems there are more of the earlier set up for sale than the later 3 band. I really would like to purchase a machine some time soon, and am beginning to think that it is one of the key differences between the later and the earlier machines. So what is your opinion anyway, and if you have been around each type? After detracking a Ski Dozer earlier this winter and having to "extract" it from the trail, I am a bit sensitive as to this issue...... :whistling:

I really want to of course not only get a decent buy on an ST4, but also a machine that will not give me too much trouble in operation, at least not initially. I am old enough and busy enough not to want to have to start with a worn out one that has a good paint job on it :hammer:

....And I am willing to pay very well for a very good one. :wink:

I am however a bit intimidated, as I have never even seen one in other than pictures before!

Any pointers on what a potential Snow Trac buyer should look for in a prospective machine would be appreciated. Maybe some day when I am more confident as to what I should choose, I will post in the WTS/WTB section. But for now I still have some things to learn, and my money is in my pocket waiting for the right one to show up. I really don't want to mess up, and purchase someone else's headache. :doh:

I already have enough of my own!!!

By the way I know I want the 54 HP engine or more.....Out here where it is flat, I can go fast, as there is not really much to see.....

So what say you...... 2 band small wheel or 3 band "big" wheel? :smile:

Best regards, Kirk

Melensdad · Mar 24, 2010

My understanding is the 3 band, big wheel configuration is the best, but I have that and no way to compare it against anything else.

As for going fast, these are snowcats, snowcats don't actually go fast. Although 20mph on a lumpy snow covered farm field with the clatter of chains, tracks and an aluminum cabin does make it seem faster than it is.

Of the antique snowcats, the fastest machines you will find are the old Bombardier B12 and C18 snowmobiles. They look like a small bus, had either wood or sheetmetal bodies (depending on age) and had skis on the front. Very nifty machines, ideal for flat lands, frozen lakes, etc. I'd love to find one. Many are still in use commercially in the upper midwest hauling fishermen out to ice fishing spots. Its easier to find them in Canada, Minnesota, etc.

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

lyndon the snow trac god had his opinion and said the 2 band track was lesslikely to walk outof the track i havenever owned a 3 band track and if i was to import another one up here it would bethe 2 band tracg only because that is all that's around these parts i had talked with my dad who had som experiance with both styles of track systems when i was younger and he also said the same thhng as lyndon he also said the boggie model did much better when climbing over stumps and dead falls on the sismic trails at alexander lake lodge lyndon has posted a lot more on the sublect but i just gave a short down and dirty on it. my snow trac is a 2 band track and i can drive on the slopes next to the roads which run about 40 degrees and not run out of the tracks but again that is about all thats up here.

300 H and H · Mar 24, 2010

I have been trying to do a search on Lydon's post about the track styles, but as of yet cann't find a match. Any ideas?

Also, Is there a difference in the track drive spockets between the two different types? If parts have to be found is it easier to find the suspension parts for the 2 band or the three? I have seen reproduction springs for instance on Snow Trac.com for the 2 band front boogie set. I would think there would be more two band than 3 band, because they made them for more years of production. 1969 looks to me like the year the change was made. Any opinions on parts availability for the two different types?

Thanks,
Kirk

Melensdad · Mar 24, 2010

I believe there were at least 3 different sprocket designs.

300 H and H · Mar 24, 2010

I found Lydon's post regarding this......From what I get out of it, the two band has less problems that the big wheel units. Good information to know...

Regards, Kirk

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

Melensdad said:
I believe there were at least 3 different sprocket designs.

i've been told that too i was looking at the sprokets on utah wilsons snomaster and i like the beef in them just what i need for mine

Lyndon · Mar 24, 2010

Re: CLARIFICATION

CLARIFICATION "Better" is a term subject to interpritation
The Original 2 Belt Snow Trac and 4 Belt Trac Masters were less prone to de-tracking. The 2 belt Snow Trac also has by far the toughest grouser or cleat.

The early series had a problem with the springs in the front bogies. It wasn't strong enough. Also there was the problem with snow build-up on the front sprockets. This is the WHY part of why they made the change. Also the second bogie from the front was prone to going flat as it took the brunt of impact when something sharp or step-like was encountered. For this the replacement of the 2 small bogies with one big wheel did achieve the engineers desired improvement. If you own an "Old-Style" it is recomended that one run a solid or foam filled tire in the second position. Machines produced just before the transition had a hollow BRASS wheel in this second position.

It is interesting to note that the 3 & 5 belt machines were vertually the only snow cats built that ran the tires ON top of the belting. Most of the other competing manufacturers, like Bombardier, ran exclusively big wheels. The small wheels are more prone to problems.

Snow Trac's prior to the "Big-Wheel" era had perhaps one of the toughest grousers on the market. All the later versions, including the 4 belt Trac Master had a Pressed Sheet Metal grouser that was not nearly as stout. they bent! In the conversion process they also went to a wheel guide that was only held on by one bolt, instead of the 2 bolt arraingement. They made the later guide taller too. As they pass outside the tires but pass thru inside the drive sprockets they had to stay fairly straight. Unfortunately they bent more easily. They are manufactured out of steel and then heat treated. Home-made ones I've seen didn't work well at all. They are getting a bit difficult to locate too. At the lap-joint where the 2 ends of the belting are there are special guides, different from the rest to accomodate the thickness of 2 belts.

Depending on the surface that one operates on the track may not always be perpendicular to the track line. I've seen the tracks often tipped as much as 45 degrees on an "Old Style" and not come off. On a Big Wheel machine, when the track tips more than about 30 degrees, the taller guides catch on the sprockets and off comes the track.

Almost every hunter in Alaska with a Snow Master described having their machine detrack in this way. One had devised an ingenius way to drive it right back on the tracks. AS SOON as he unloaded it off his trailer he would scout around and find some 1.5 to 2 inch diameter tree limbs, cut them into foot long pieces. when his machine detracked he would lay the pieces in the track line between the grousers, and one person would push on the track while the other backed the machine up. It was a bit dangerous, but quick. He never even loosened the track.

As with any tracked vehicle tensioning is critical. A loose track will come off, and a tight one will usually stay on. It you own a 3 Belt, or 5 Belt machine avoid side hills and ruts from wheeled vehicles. Definately avoid backing up on a side hill too. Even Thiokol and Bombardier's will detrack in deep snow while backing on a steep side hill.

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

Re: CLARIFICATION

Lyndon said:
CLARIFICATION "Better" is a term subject to interpritation
The Original 2 Belt Snow Trac and 4 Belt Trac Masters were less prone to de-tracking. The 2 belt Snow Trac also has by far the toughest grouser or cleat.

The early series had a problem with the springs in the front bogies. It wasn't strong enough. Also there was the problem with snow build-up on the front sprockets. This is the WHY part of why they made the change. Also the second bogie from the front was prone to going flat as it took the brunt of impact when something sharp or step-like was encountered. For this the replacement of the 2 small bogies with one big wheel did achieve the engineers desired improvement. If you own an "Old-Style" it is recomended that one run a solid or foam filled tire in the second position. Machines produced just before the transition had a hollow BRASS wheel in this second position.

It is interesting to note that the 3 & 5 belt machines were vertually the only snow cats built that ran the tires ON top of the belting. Most of the other competing manufacturers, like Bombardier, ran exclusively big wheels. The small wheels are more prone to problems.

Snow Trac's prior to the "Big-Wheel" era had perhaps one of the toughest grousers on the market. All the later versions, including the 4 belt Trac Master had a Pressed Sheet Metal grouser that was not nearly as stout. they bent! In the conversion process they also went to a wheel guide that was only held on by one bolt, instead of the 2 bolt arraingement. They made the later guide taller too. As they pass outside the tires but pass thru inside the drive sprockets they had to stay fairly straight. Unfortunately they bent more easily. They are manufactured out of steel and then heat treated. Home-made ones I've seen didn't work well at all. They are getting a bit difficult to locate too. At the lap-joint where the 2 ends of the belting are there are special guides, different from the rest to accomodate the thickness of 2 belts.

Depending on the surface that one operates on the track may not always be perpendicular to the track line. I've seen the tracks often tipped as much as 45 degrees on an "Old Style" and not come off. On a Big Wheel machine, when the track tips more than about 30 degrees, the taller guides catch on the sprockets and off comes the track.

Almost every hunter in Alaska with a Snow Master described having their machine detrack in this way. One had devised an ingenius way to drive it right back on the tracks. AS SOON as he unloaded it off his trailer he would scout around and find some 1.5 to 2 inch diameter tree limbs, cut them into foot long pieces. when his machine detracked he would lay the pieces in the track line between the grousers, and one person would push on the track while the other backed the machine up. It was a bit dangerous, but quick. He never even loosened the track.

As with any tracked vehicle tensioning is critical. A loose track will come off, and a tight one will usually stay on. It you own a 3 Belt, or 5 Belt machine avoid side hills and ruts from wheeled vehicles. Definately avoid backing up on a side hill too. Even Thiokol and Bombardier's will detrack in deep snow while backing on a steep side hill.

Lyndon you said the early model snow tracs like mine had weak springs in the front boggie assembly is there a fix for that mine has one spring inside of a larger spring

Lyndon · Mar 24, 2010

Yes actually there was. As with the improvements in exhaust design, the Canadian Phone company came up with the fix. In the long run NorthWest Tell and BC Tell bought, owned, operated and fixed more machines than anyone else. Ideas and 'feedback' from Snow Trac's single largest customer were acted on and incorperated into later designs. If one looks at the Production Years chart there is one year that outsold all the other years, around 1962, that's because of a massive sale of 200 machines to the Canadian phone companies. They stayed the largest buyer and user of ST4 thru out the production, eventually having purchased over a quarter of all the ST4's ever built.

Now, back to your original question: The "FIX" that NorthWest Tell out of White Horse YT(Yukon Territory) devised was to add a piece of channell iron that carried a second set of springs on the inside of the track line.(probably designed by Rory Corniel, head Engineer, or one of his mechanics at White Horse) It was the same Spring inside a spring, so in all there were (4) coil springs instead of 2.
I purchased one of these machines from NorthWest Tell that was used to access a microwave tower on the Alaska Highway (ALCAN) and it was the toughest machine I ever owned. It had all solid wheels. I later sold it thru Bill & Mary Guthrie in Idahoe. The buyer was a ski-cabin owner near where I live and I used to go and check on it periodically. It was especially "Photogenic" as it was Yellow on the fornt half and Red on the rear with a 45 Degree split. When I showed it at the Northwest vintage VW Meet it got it's picture into almost every VW magazine published at the time. I believe it's serial number was #308, but we just called it "RED/Yellow". The last time I saw it I almost cried. The owner had added aluminum angle channel to beef up the grousers, but then his kid drove it,.. or more correctly "Field-Beat" it without properly tensioning the track. All the springs had come out and one was jambed up in the undrecarriage. I havn't been back to check on it since then.
I made, and saved detailed photos of the Dual Spring modification right before I sold it, but they are home, and I'm "On-The-Slope". It's a blustery -45 with the wind chill out and I think our snow removal guys have moved the entire equivalent to the Great Pyramid of Giza in snow this week already!(actually NOT, it would be 365,000 trips with the 10 yard bucket!) It is remotely possible I already posted the pictures, but I don't know where. Pictures of the actual machine are all over this website and elsewhere on the web. Ole "Red/Yellow" was a legend unto itself.

300 H and H · Mar 24, 2010

The importance of track tension is obvious....My Caterpillar rubber tracked tractor has massive springs that keep track tension within limits at all times, unless dirt is being packed on the wheels or the inside of the tracks. :doh:

I wonder why snow cats don't seem to have spring tensioning. It would help I would think with slack that developes when you reverse. Not to mention one less thing to maintain.

Did I catch that the later wheel guides for the tracks are getting hard to find? Good thing to consider here? Are the older style cheaper and easier to find?

Most of my running be in my farm fields, but to cross the ditches or snow pushed up in front of field drives is my challenge. I know to approach them perpendicular and slow, not turning either while you are crossing the obstruction. A good thing about this is if you detrack it would be right by the road!! :yum:

Thanks for the input!

Regards, Kirk

couchloafer · Mar 24, 2010

Re: CLARIFICATION

Lyndon said:
CLARIFICATION

They are manufactured out of steel and then heat treated. Home-made ones I've seen didn't work well at all. They are getting a bit difficult to locate too. At the lap-joint where the 2 ends of the belting are there are special guides, different from the rest to accomodate the thickness of 2 belts.

Lyndon,
Do you know if only the tall track guides for Big Wheel models were heat treated? All the ones I have for the old stlye small wheel versions dont appear to be.
Do you have any pictures of the "special guides" at the lap-joints? Were these also only on the big wheel models?
Never owned a bid wheel so all of this is facinating.

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

there is a finite supply up here with all the 2 band tracked rigs i have found rotting away but with the durability of the guides i would consider it a lifetime supply and lyndon if when you get home and remember could you pm me some pics of the spring mods as i could use some improvement with the beating my suspension takes on this hard snow.

Lyndon · Mar 24, 2010

Re: Guides

When I got my first Snow Trac it led to a serious "Hunt" for spare parts. Bill Guthrie said: "try the Bombardier guy's in Calgary", the Parts guy in Calgary said: "Talk to Rory Corniel in White Horse and Harry Dewient in Prince George". Rory said they just sold all their snow tracs and directed me to a Power line construction outfit in Grand Prairie. Vallard Construction in Grand Prairie AB sold me 5 ST4's and a 24ft container chalk full of brand new ST4 parts. Some of the parts were in Westermaskiner and Aktiv bags and packaging, all said: Northwest Tell, Whitehorse YT. Included were roughly 1000 old style guides, and maybe 200 "Big Wheel" guides, and a hand full of the special 'Lap-joint' tall guides. Later I bought out the dealer in Delta Junction Ak of all his spares which included another 2 or 3 milk crates full of the old style and a smaller number of the later style, and again some of the special tall guides for the lap-joint.

I found that calling electric motor rewind shops seemed to always have the oldest living guy's and they could usually direct me to some snow cat owner. One in Fairbanks told me of a Welding Shop in North Pole Alaska that was working on a Snow Trac. They tried to make the guides, but they said that they were hardened and that Non-hardened ones failed. They also directed me to the owner of the an Ex-Alyeska Pipeline Ambulance Snow Trac which I bought. The owner of that machine worked for UPS and was just retiring. Previously he had been a Propane delivery guy and he gave me directions and information how to find another 30 machines he had spotted in his delivery work for propane and UPS. I tracked down most of the machines and spoke with many owners and looked at lots of machines in central alaska. According to Bill Bolunis Jr, the son of the Snow Trac dealer in Anchorage, 550 machines were shipped to and sold in Alaska. The "Hunt" for snow cats took me to almost every place in alaska that one can drive to on the limited road system, as well as some native villages that can only be accessed by air travel such as Kotzebue, and Nuicsut. I certainly saw more of Alaska than most tourists do.
I believe the old style guides were hardened partially by being Hot-dip galvanized, so just partially hardened. As for the taller late style guides it was the welding shop machinists in North Pole that indicated that they were definately heat treated, but to what extent I don't know.
When I sold out my hoard of Snow Trac parts to Warren, he also bought out the only remaining dealer in alaska, Jerry Mentzel. Jerry had bought out Bill Bolunis. Included were even more track guides.
I got a complete pair of NEW Tracks for a big wheel machine from Al Gartz, the dealer before Bill Bolunis, out of Delta Junction in 95, but they went on the FAA Snow Trac that I bought from Cold Bay Alaska. I'm fairly sure this was the last set of new tracks produced by AKTIV. They were still in the crate, but at this point Christer didn't have any complete new tracks back in Sweden.

Lyndon · Mar 24, 2010

"Do you have any pictures of the "special guides" at the lap-joints? Were these also only on the big wheel models?
Never owned a bid wheel so all of this is facinating. "

I do not have pictures, but I believe they are listed in the owners manual and their part numbers are certainly there.

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

i love it when lyndon starts telling stories wished i had the time to go research the stuff he did and meet the people he has met

Snowtrac Nome · Mar 24, 2010

300 H and H said:
The importance of track tension is obvious....My Caterpillar rubber tracked tractor has massive springs that keep track tension within limits at all times, unless dirt is being packed on the wheels or the inside of the tracks. I wonder why snow cats don't seem to have spring tensioning. It would help I would think with slack that developes when you reverse. Not to mention one less thing to maintain.

Did I catch that the later wheel guides for the tracks are getting hard to find? Good thing to consider here? Are the older style cheaper and easier to find?

Most of my running be in my farm fields, but to cross the ditches or snow pushed up in front of field drives is my challenge. I know to approach them perpendicular and slow, not turning either while you are crossing the obstruction. A good thing about this is if you detrack it would be right by the road!!

Thanks for the input!

Regards, Kirk

you know thats not a bad idea when you read the bv206 manual they caution about track readjustment for different temps asrring loaded adjuster would solve that .

Lyndon · Mar 25, 2010

This Thread shows all the various ST4 Tracs.
http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=25633&highlight=Snow+Trac+Grouser

This particular Grouser in my opinion is one of the best engineered and most durable grousers.

HERE'S WHY: Any 2 track machine, including dozers, tanks, Trac-Hoes and Snow Cats,.. has to have the track SLIP when it turns. This particular grouser is progressive, that is it has steps. When it's on a hard surface it just runs on the center which is only about 2 inches wide and creates less rolling resistance as well as making it turn easier. When one gets on softer ground it sinks in more and runs on the next wider part giving it more flotation, and when it's in really soft material, like snow, it sets the weight on the entire grouser. These grousers don't bend or break very easily. They really hold up better than most.
Hunters really put tracked snow machines to the test. They are hunting in the fall when there is little or no show cover. Even Bombardier's tough Muskeg grousers don't seem to wear as well and last as long. Eventually the center wears out.
Defense 'Rests'.

SnowTrac Hunter · Jun 13, 2010

Lyndon,
If you get a chance post the pics of the front assembly spring/shock that was modified. That seems to be a week link. I had to straighten mine and was even thinking of building another set with heavier duty material. I just don't want to build it too heavy and end up breaking something. Mine came pre-bent of course. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. Put new roof on mine last winter. I am toying with the idea of mounting a van seat on the roof that I could remove when not in use. Roof was 1/4" plywood originally, but I upgraded to 3/4" ply. Then I put 2 coats of Kilz primer and 3 coats of exterior paint on it and let it cure in the garage for a few days. Need to put new shocks on it though. The old ones are shot I think. we broke one last time out(summer running). Are all the shocks the same?

Snowtrac Nome · Jun 14, 2010

Joseph R Williams said:
Lyndon,
If you get a chance post the pics of the front assembly spring/shock that was modified. That seems to be a week link. I had to straighten mine and was even thinking of building another set with heavier duty material. I just don't want to build it too heavy and end up breaking something. Mine came pre-bent of course. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. Put new roof on mine last winter. I am toying with the idea of mounting a van seat on the roof that I could remove when not in use. Roof was 1/4" plywood originally, but I upgraded to 3/4" ply. Then I put 2 coats of Kilz primer and 3 coats of exterior paint on it and let it cure in the garage for a few days. Need to put new shocks on it though. The old ones are shot I think. we broke one last time out(summer running). Are all the shocks the same?

the shocks are the same i have kyb shocks i picked up at car quest also take a look at the piviot shafts they can crack and break happened on one side on mine had to build a new one out of chrome molley axle shaft material.

2 band vrs 3 band ST4 tracks

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